Coleman A. Young (1918 - 1997)
The MF is still In Charge
Young laid it on the line in his last Metro Times interview.
by Jack Lessenberry
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originally published 10/11/95
A little more than two years ago, the man who will always be known as "The Mayor" gave the Metro Times his most extensive published interview after leaving office ("The MF is still IC, MT, Oct. 11-17, 1995). He told how he would have handled casinos, suggested a merger with Highland Park and questioned some actions of his successor, Mayor Dennis Archer. Significantly, Young, then 77, gave the interview in his downtown Riverfront apartment with a window view of the city that had been his home since 1923 -- no Florida retirement for this Detroiter.His trademark "M.F.I.C." nameplate was still prominently displayed on the bookshelf in his private office.
And by the way, if you didn't know, the last two letters stand for "in charge."
A View Of Detroit
MT: What do you think of Detroit these days?
Young: Detroit is a purposeful city. It is blessed. Its strength is its people -- that sounds like a political statement, but it is true. Here in Detroit you have the most informed electorate that you will find anywhere in the nation. Detroiters are strong. They have to be.
This town was based on the automobile industry, and has a blue-collar stock. Blue-collar values are strong and not easily defeated. So despite an increase in unemployment and all the other maladies ... this city is still strong and potentially capable of being united and galvanized to move in a progressive direction.
MT: Well, is Detroit doing that?
Young: I don't think (the city) has been accomplishing that as well as it should be under the present administration. It would be unseemly, I think, of me to attempt to evaluate my successor after less than two years experience. I can only say that I had done a hell of a lot more and was a lot further along the line after two years in office! He started out with, and I suppose he still has, the almost unanimous support of the private sector -- outside the city of Detroit in many cases. He was not elected by the black folk; he got less than half the black vote.
MT: Some would dispute that.
Young: Oh, I've looked at the figures. But right or wrong, he has done, in my opinion, very little during his time in office to consolidate that vote.
MT: Do Dennis Archer and his people talk to you? Do they ask your advice?
Young: No. Once -- it must have been over a year ago -- Dennis came over to see me, and he talked about me accompanying him on some of the political trips he was making in Detroit. I don't know what the problem was; I gather he was getting a cool reception and meeting troubled waters, and I told him, very frankly -- I can't do that after the way you have fucked over my people. And he has been, as you know, he also fucked over a lot of people who were not even my people, and City Hall is all fucked up now. All the technicians are gone, for example. That's the last I ever heard from him.
MT: With that in mind, do you regret not having done more to groom a successor?
Young: I guess so, although ... I have always been an exponent of the fact that men don't shape events; events shape men. I don't believe in the "great man" theory of history. My theory is that it is a crisis that produces great men. I don't give a damn what your capabilities are -- unless you come along at a certain time in history, you are not going to have the impact that someone else who may lack certain gifts may have. If they come along at the right time, they may become a giant.
On the successor question -- I tried to get Charlie Williams to run, and he, as much as anyone, was someone I was grooming. I was very impressed with Charlie's capabilities, his honesty and dedication, but he chose not to do it.
MT: Is there anyone who you think could be an outstanding mayor of Detroit?
Young: I supported Sharon McPhail last time. If she ran again today in opposition to Dennis Archer, I'd support her again. I think she is very capable. She has vision ... but she also has balls, which are important!
But there is also Charlie Williams, who is now at New Detroit, and there are some younger leaders. I think we have a number of young people coming along, and I don't want to go into names, because you make some people mad if you leave them out. But another in that group would be Don Barden.
MT: You have often been seen as being at odds with the suburbs. David Rusk, the former mayor of Albuquerque, has written a book, "Cities Without Suburbs," in which he argues that the only hope for the nation's aging industrial cities is for state legislatures to compel metropolitan-wide governments.
Young: No, I don't think that would work. Look at Dade County, which includes Miami, in Florida, and how hopelessly fucked up it is. But we do need to recognize that we need the suburbs as much as they need the city of Detroit-- and vice versa. Whatever the perception, I have always advocated and recognized the need for unity between Detroit and surrounding areas. The suburbs can't make it unless the city of Detroit does, and the city can't make it unless the suburbs do. We have a commonality of interests, and that's very, very clear, but that's not going to be achieved by the representatives in the legislature from the suburbs joining forces in a coalition with outstate Republicans and giving the shaft to the city of Detroit.
MT: Do you mean something that's going on now?
Young: Who is that guy, that sort of CEO out in Oakland County?
MT: L. Brooks Patterson, the county executive?
Young: Patterson, yeah. He's talking about holding up some hotel tax money we had (coming) as a result of a state act to expand Cobo Hall. ... It took a lot of nerve for Patterson to threaten the City of Detroit in regard to this argument over the Lions (moving back to Detroit).
Now, I imagine that in reality the Lions are just going through some kind of gesturing with the Silverdome before they finally settle on an agreement. I can't forget, and Patterson probably doesn't want to remember... that when the Silverdome was built, the state paid the same type of guarantee to the Silverdome. The difference was that this was a direct state subsidy. I believe it was close to a million dollars a year. But it came up every damn year -- it was renewable by the Legislature.
Now I resented greatly the building of the Silverdome. It was a very obvious attempt to rip Detroit off. But I supported that allocation of funds for the Silverdome every year, because I didn't want to be in a position of condoning the state backing off any commitment it had made to any local unit of government. That's what he is asking to do -- and it is pure anarchy!
MT: Mayor Dennis Archer initially opposed casino gambling, then campaigned hard for it after the voters overwhelmingly approved it in a referendum last year. But Gov. John Engler said no. How would you have handled the whole casino thing?
Young: I wouldn't have opposed it! You know that from my past record! I got kicked in the ass about four times by the voters on that subject. I certainly would have been out there in the forefront of those campaigning for a yes vote, but be that as it may.
Once the voters said OK, I would have immediately called upon Engler to have signed the damn thing for Greektown. The Legislature, which had just come back into session, was at that time primed to pass the thing, even for riverboat gambling.
Everything in life is timing, and that was the time. I wouldn't have held out for a week and proclaimed my continued opposition, and then gone around and bullshitted about getting more for the city, and then gone around visiting Atlanta and New Orleans and wherever else had gambling.
MT: Do you think Engler treated Archer with contempt on this issue?
Young: I think he has treated Archer and the city of Detroit with contempt. But Archer let Engler off the hook, giving him a breathing space and giving the opposition a chance to build up. Meanwhile, he (Archer) is fixated on getting together with (Ted) Gatzaros and the Indians and cutting up their piece of the pie. Eventually he comes out and proclaimed that he had worked out a new deal that was more favorable to the city. But who he had to negotiate with was not Ted and not the Indians-- it was Engler!
MT: What do you think are the top three things the city and the metro area needs?
Young: First I'd have to say, transportation. Then jobs, obviously. And it needs some unity among its own citizens, and within the communities surrounding Detroit. There are those who say that I am responsible for the disunity. I wasn't around when those guys sabotaged the riverfront stadium that was planned and built the Silverdome in Pontiac. ...
It was I who initiated the Big Four (conferences) between the mayor of Detroit and the CEOs of the three counties, Wayne, Oakland and Macomb. I have always advocated and recognized the need for unity between Detroit and surrounding areas. But there has to be some indication of some interest in the city of Detroit (on the part of the other parties) and fairness.
For example ... I have no problem with having a united transportation system. But it oughta be on the basis of who provides the service. Now Detroit is 80 percent of the ridership -- maybe 90 percent. We've at least 80 percent of the rolling stock. So how in the hell are we supposed to enter into consolidation with the rest of the people and give them 51 percent of the voting power?
. . . That's the reason that when I had a chance to pull out, I pulled out of SEMTA because they were short-cutting us on money. SEMTA's governing board shortstopped us on this, and we couldn't do a damn thing about it. I had an obligation as mayor of the city of Detroit to protect our citizens against that kind of rape. I wouldn't sign any agreement that wouldn't say that when it comes to control, ridership decides.
MT: What do you mean by 'destabilizing' a city?
Young: One example is by cooperating with Chrysler Corp. to move the Chrysler headquarters (and the) Chrysler proving grounds from Highland Park to Oakland County. That was the work of the last governor, (Democrat James J.) Blanchard. I warned at the time that they were going to destabilize a fairly stable city. Chrysler was the bedrock of their tax base -- Highland Park. They had been teetering on the brink. Now they have passed some sort of urban economic emergency bill that provides that the state would take over. Now the state doesn't really want to get into the administration of municipal government! The logical thing for Highland Park to do at this juncture would be to merge with Detroit. It makes sense.
MT: Hamtramck too?
Young: Hamtramck was in the same state until we built the Cadillac plant. Hamtramck was dependent on the old Dodge plant. When (Dodge) left, they were in dire emergency until we built the General Motors plant, which restored the viability of the city.
This further underlines the fact I mentioned before -- the commonality of interest. It is in the interest of the state to maintain a healthy Hamtramck and a healthy Highland Park and a healthy Ecorse and a healthy River Rouge. But the moving of industry out (of Detroit) has now become an intramural sport! We used to have to guard against the governor of Ohio coming in here with a pocket full of gold to try to lure business. Now that happens between our own communities.
National Trends
MT: What's your take on Colin Powell, politics' man of the hour?
Young: I think he'll wind up as the vice presidential candidate on the Republican ticket, and probably with (U.S. Sen. Robert) Dole. But he's perfectly flexible! Whoever is nominated by the convention will probably be acceptable to him, if he is acceptable to them.
However, I think they greatly overestimate his appeal on the ticket. They may lose more than they gain by putting him on. The bedrock strength of the Republican Party is the religious right, and the far right, and the very first thing for many of them is that any black is totally unacceptable. Now I know the idea is that they can hold their own, and strengthen that by cutting into the base of the Democratic vote. But they reckon without the sophistication of the average black voter.
I have been listening to Powell, as you can well imagine, very carefully as he makes the rounds of the networks. By his own definition he is a fiscal conservative and a social liberal, or something like that. Well, if he believes that you need to reduce the size of government but still thinks some things are important, Medicaid, Medicare. He sounds like Clinton! Except that he hasn't fleshed out his positions yet.
I think as you listen to him-- he'll be going further and further to the right.
MT: We've touched on racism. Have things gotten any better in the last 20 years?
Young: I think there have been gains made. To be fair, the mere fact that Powell is a potential presidential candidate would have been unthinkable 20 years ago. Of course, so is the fact that he is thinking about running as a Republican ... I don't know if you call that progress! But there have been some positive changes -- not enough. Who was it that said one step forward and two steps back? That seems to be what's going on around here.
MT: Apparently the nation itself seems to be going further and further to the right. You had direct experience with being blacklisted and otherwise persecuted during the McCarthy era. How does this time compare to that?
Young: I think that we are getting pretty close to it. Except that today the word "liberal" is now being substituted for "communist"!
One thing I think that is so important for our country is religious freedom. You know, I for one don't object to the church being involved in politics. But to get to the point where the church takes over a political party to basically influence its philosophy and its candidates -- that's really what the religious right is doing today. That's an outgrowth of the last eight years. They were very active in the last presidential election, and a hell of a lot more active now.
You have had the emergence of the skinheads -- some call them the militia -- they were formerly known as the Ku Klux Klan and the Aryan Society... but they are all the same. Why, just take notice of the Simpson trial. When (former LA Police Detective Mark) Fuhrman retired ... he went to Idaho! Which is the capital state for these guys! Oh, they have been there -- it just hasn't surfaced, and it's really frightening, what's happened all around us, and here in Michigan. We have this movement going on in this country, and if it should ever coalesce, we will be under some form of right-wing dictatorship.
MT: Why has this happened?
Young: They have a revolutionary appeal. Their formula is simple; their scapegoats are the government, the NAACP, affirmative action. This whole business of Jim Crow in reverse and discrimination against white men -- it's a myth, but it is an appealing myth.
Look at the percentages today on our work force. You'll find that the percentage of blacks who have jobs today hasn't moved in the last 20 years -- that's one thing affirmative action hasn't affected. The percentage of Hispanics -- up just a little bit. Women, true, have gained more than either of these other two groups. But not enough to make that much goddamn difference.
So what's all this business about the white male being supplanted? There's no blacks in charge of the top 100 corporations in this country ... unless maybe Beatrice Foods, and very damn few women! What I'd like to do is even the playing field, and there are objections even to that. You know what whites say; all this business about -- "Why punish me? I am not responsible for what my grandfather did!"
... Frankly, I believe that the modern corporate executives -- talking about white people -- are less progressive than their predecessors. During the period when I first took office, back in 1974 -- you had a number of progressive whites who were heading corporations, people like Henry Ford II. We formed an economic growth corporation my first term ... with two (retired) CEOs from Chrysler and from General Motors. One had retired to California and the other to Florida, and they flew in once a month for our board meetings, and they gave leadership, which was much more important. And they influenced the other CEOs.
Now you've got a new group -- young Turks -- who in my opinion are more conservative, and who in some cases want to turn the clock back.
The mayor on himself
MT: By the way, you look well. Are you feeling well?
Young: I am -- and I am looking forward to beginning my teaching stint at the university (Wayne State) next month. I want to begin by lecturing in someone else's class, once a week, anyhow. I haven't decided yet what I want to teach.
My span of interest is Afro-American history-- particularly as applies to Detroit and the politics of the African-American community, which have been a factor in the politics of Detroit since I have known it. But I am also interested in labor and the part labor has played, since that's about half my background.
MT: How would you like to be remembered when they write the history of Detroit?
Young: I suppose I'd like to be remembered as the mayor who served in a period of ongoing crisis and took some important steps to keep the city together, but left office with his work incomplete. I think, when you look back, there have been some important developments in this city with which I was connected.
MT: Is Detroit going to make it?
Young: Oh, yeah. There isn't any question. Now, I'm not sure there aren't going to be more attempts to pick this city clean of its major assets, like water and transportation. They (the Legislature and the suburbs) want to take transportation on their terms. ... But Detroit's greatest days are ahead of it.
You know, you cannot substitute this geography. We border the best waterway in the world, the Detroit River, with the largest city on the American border facing the largest city on the Canadian border. Our potential for commercial development is unrivaled. We have land coming out of your ears. We have a million people in an area that was inhabited by close to 2 million. And our greatest asset is the skilled work force we have here.
MT: Taking everything into account-- how would you grade yourself?
Young: As mayor of the City of Detroit? Oh, I'd give myself a B.
MT: That surprises me. Only a B?
Young: Well, I could be persuaded . . .
Jack Lessenberry is a Metro Times contributing editor.